tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC June 8, 2012 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT
tonight. that's "the ed show." i want to thank ed for letting me sit in for him tonight. next, "the rachel maddow show" takes viewers inside the trial of a doctor who was shot by antiabortion extremist. the assassination plays like a movie. the story unfolds right before you eyes, and so do the underlying issues attached to it. that's next. in politics culture war is a term of art. it means americans finding the enemy here in our country among americans. it means finding more differences between us produce fear and resentment and stoking it to maximum effect. in politics this is how you get wedge issues. for come culture war is not a metaphor the literally war. they will kill for it.
the americans defined as the enemy are seen as justifiable targets of violence, even as assassination. here is one story of how that works in america today. 911. >> somebody just came in somebody at our church. dr. george tiller was shot snp. >> the lives of those children were in iminnocent danger. >> mr. tiller set himself as the abortion provider for all late term abortions. >> some people despised him. some thought-a great humanitari humanitarian. >> the anti-abortion movement had one movement. shut down dr. george tiller's clinic by any means necessary.
>> stop killing babies. >> their approach was to wear him down and to peck at him from every angle. >> find out where the child killer lives. find out where his wife has her hair down. >> from harassing him personally at his home to harassing the staff and patients coming in. >> he was a vile despicable human being. >> out there somewhere is one soul who is listening to all of this and wants to be the person that rights the wrong. >> if someone did not stop him, they were going to continue to die. the babies were going to continue to die. >> he thought he was the redeemer. >> the day this event happened was a beautiful day. service started with music being played. >> jeanie tiller was singing
with the choir. his name was printed in the bulletin. >> i looked at my watch and seen it was a couple of minutes before 10:00. there was a pastry table and i made my way over to the table, just george and i. i was facing toward the sanctuary. george had his back to the doors. i noticed somebody coming up to the table. i looked, just as i looked up, i seen scott roader put a gun up to the side of george's head and fired one shot. >> i heard a pop or report just like a fire cracker. there was a considerable amount of evidence of bleeding that was occurring. i did start a resuscitation on dr. tiller in an effort to see if we could get response. >> just seconds after shooting
dr. george tiller in the head, scott roader turns and runs out of church. he is pursued by two men, keith martin and gary heckner. >> i just followed him out the door. he was running through the grass. he turned around and yelled over his shoulder, i've got a gun and i'll shoot you. i just froze. >> roader kept running. keith martin took a different direction out. the guy points a gun at him and says get out of my way. i'll kill you too. roader was driving out. they were next to each other. he threw a cup of coffee at him. roader then left. >> around 1:30 in the afternoon, johnson county deputies take it upon themselves to watch interstate 35, which is the main road that comes into kansas city, and we're watching for the
tag that we broadcast. >> they pulled him over. >> step out of vehicle, and face away from me. >> they get him out of car. put his hands behind his back to lay down. they go down there. they cuff him, and he's in custody. >> reporter: it's no mystery who pulled the trigger, but authorities work to track down any known associates of roader's to learn whether others were involved. >> we had talked to his ex-employers, we talked to friends. we talked to members of his bible studies. we talked to his family. he did this very secretive. >> reporter: three days after the shooting, scott meets with his defense team. >> we told scott please don't talk to anyone about this. he thought that the issue was bigger than him. people needed to know about the horrors of abortion. slowly, but sure he he leaked everything out and said
everything he had done and why he did it. >> he fired one shot into dr. tiller. >> reporter: he's charged with first-degree murder. he and his lawyers devise a defense strategy based on his feelings of abortion. >> the defendant's belief was he was justified in shooting dr. tiller because it was imminent that he was going to do abortions the next day and he was protecting the lives of the unborn by killing the killer before he committed the act. then he testified. i've been trying cases on both sides for 20 years. it was a surreal experience knowing i'm going to put my client up. >> why did you kill him? >> the lives of those children were in imminent danger. he was going to continue as he
had done for 36 years prior to that time. if someone did not stop him, they were going to continue to die, the babies were going to continue to die. >> i was just furious. then i realized pretty soon that scott is a rather dull guy. he doesn't seem like he's the brightest light in the string. he was reacting to an atmosphere of hatred. >> to me he's just a tool. the climate was such that he could do this act. if the climate had not been like that, if everyone had been doing their job, he would not have killed dr. tiller. do you need a lamp to see? and does it leave your bedmate be? don't you wish there was a light that wouldn't keep them up all night?
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shoots and kills george tiller in his church on may 31st, 2009, america had a long history of extreme violence against abortion providers and their employers. 1993 dr. david gun is shot to death in florida. 1994 two clinic workers are murdered in massachusetts. 1998, dr. barnett is gunned down by a sniper has he stands in his on kitchen in buffalo, new york. in addition to three other murders, the national abortion federation reports that more than 200 american clinics have been subjected to bombs and arson since 1977. >> those are acts of domestic terrorism which are intended to intimidate. if i kill one doctor, maybe i'll intimidate 100 doctors. >> my business is legal. their business of anarchy is
illegal. >> george tiller could not be intimidated. he was one of three physicians in the united states who specialized in abortions done in the second and third trimesters of pregnancy. >> he was not shy about publicizing what he did. he was never anpologized for wht he did. >> the first real flash of violence strikes in 1986 when a bomb is set off to the entrance of his clinic. >> we've had a major $100,000 bombing here in our organization, and one day later, we're in business. >> stop killing babies. >> five years later starting in july 1991, wichita is the backdrop to an event known to antiabortionists known as the summer of murder. >> it was carried on the news
media nightly. >> i don't think wichita wanted to be the focal point of the summer of mercy. you had one of the most notorious child killers in the world there. that was the price the community had to pay. >> we fear god. the supreme judge of the world more than we fear any federal judge. >> in 1991, randall terry is the fiery leader of operation rescue which organizes the demonstrations. there goal to disrupt and close george tiller's clinic. >> some people would chain themselves underneath the car. the whole point was to buy time. as long as we were sitting in front of the doors, he couldn't open.
>> we were undersiege the whole time. we had patients that would come in from out of town and the protesters wouldn't let them get through. something that was legal, it felt like we were doing something wrong. >> there were over 2,500 arrests during the siege. >> it was a wonderful event. a lot of people letting the world know, the abortion industry was put on notice that we were going to defend the unborn baby until the law is changed. >> the volatile events of the summer of 1991 do not change any of the laws on abortion in the state of kansas and they do not force george tiller to close his clinic doors and leave wichita. his roots in the city are deep going back more than a century. while dr. tiller always aimed to practice medicine, he had never
intended to specialize in abortion. >> dr. tiller's father, jack tiller, was a family physician in wichita, kansas, quite renowned. dr. tiller went to medical school. >> he was a flight surgeon in the navy when his parents and his sister and brother-in-law got killed in an airplane accident. >> dr. tiller came back to wichita. i think he was going to close the practice and somehow decided to stay and take over the practice which was family practice. >> in 2000, dr. tiller is interviewed by the group for reproductive choice for health. he explains what drove him to abortion. >> they asked me was i going to do abortions like my father did. i was horrified. why would these nice people say he was scum bag type physician? the women in my father's practice for whom he did
abortions educated me and taught me that an abortion is a matter of survival for women. >> he took care of patients and women and families that nobody else was able to take care of. >> well, i think he was very sure of himself. this is the right thing. he's very determined. >> dr. tiller's resolve is not enough to protect his clinic or himself from further violence. >> i pointed into the window and fired the shots. it was silver and she turned and took off. >> in 1993, an anti-abortion extremists attacks dr. tiller as he was leaving work. >> i think somebody comes up to hand me a booklet. i thought, come on. i was really pretty fired up. i gave her the finger. the next thing it noticed bang, bang, bang. i was holding my arms.
i thought to myself that lady is shooting me with rubber bullets. i'm not afraid of that and i looked down and there's blood all over the place. >> she shot him through the window and hit his left harm and right arm. bullet went through both arms. >> the shooter is quickly arrested and identified as rochelle shelly shannon. a woman authorities soon tied to bombings of other clinics. >> she was a solid believer in that violence was appropriate and she was going to get the job done. she wasn't a very good shot. thank god. >> the doctor recommended he take a few days off. he said no, i'm going twork. i have patients. >> i'm just like my patients. last night i got shot and i was scared but there was somebody there to take care of me.
>> the next day he came in. work as usual. >> he put up a big sign in front of his clinic that said women need abortion, and i'm going to do them. he said it's legal. it's a required service and i'm going to do them. >> there was never any question in my mind that i was going back to work the next day. i was going to work hell or high water. i'm not going to be run over or run out. it's that simple. that goes to work in seconds and freshens breath. new tums freshers. ♪ tum...tum...tum...tum... tums! ♪ [ male announcer ] fast relief, fresh breath, all in a pocket sized pack. trouble with a car insurance claim. [ voice of dennis ] switch to allstate. their claim service is so good, now it's guaranteed. [ normal voice ] so i can trust 'em. unlike randy. are you in good hands?
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if you can't put up with the heat from society, don't get into it. it's not an advocation. it's a mission. >> for nearly 40 years, dr. george tiller operated a medical facility that specialized not only in abortions, but those that occurred in the later months of pregnancy. controversy never ceased to swirl around his clinic for the doctors and staff who worked alongside him, taking a position there was always much more than just a job. >> i think this work is not just work. it's not the kind of thing, this is just my job, so i'm going to go 9:00 to 5:00.
it's a deep desire to help people incredibly desperate situations. it was such pain. >> they were all catastrophes. you don't pick up and go from new york or washington state or france or new zealand and travel to wichita, kansas on a whim. >> abortion has nothing to do with whether you're for it or against it. it just depends totally on your situation. there were lots and lots of situations. >> three women who went to dr. tiller have chosen to share their stories here, but not all feel comfortable revealing their identities. >> it's important that i stay anonymous because this story isn't just my story. it's also my family's story. i also think that there's really no need to put a face to my story since it could be anybody
really. >> i was, believe i was about 25 weeks pregnant. what we were told was she had less than a 3% chance of living through the birth. >> i grew to have dreams for this child already. i had nursery done and a fear the child would be severely disabled and i would not be able to care for him. >> dr. tiller was the last option for people in my situation. that was the toughest choice i've ever had to make and probably will ever have to make. >> like most other abortion clinics around the world the majority of procedures were for first trimester pregnancies. for the second and third trimesters they provided much more specialized care. >> we divided the third
trimester patients into two groups. fetal indications and maternal indications. there was something very, very wrong with the baby with the fetal indications. >> the other group was abortions that were being done for maternal indications. many of them were suicidal. some of them were just ridiculously young like 11 or 12 or 13. this group of young women had to meet with a second doctor who had to agree that this pregnancy represented a threat to their health. >> the biggest challenge was not the work itself but the challenges were really outside the clinic. >> we started the presence at tiller's gate with the intention of shutting down the tiller abortion facility. that was the ultimate goal.
>> we would show up at the abortion clinic long before it would open and began placing a series of christian crosses along the public easement in the grass. we would park the truth truck with the pictures of aborting children right across from his driveway. shortly after that the patients would arrive. >> it was a long quiet ride into wichita. we had been warned there are picketers and protesters out front. >> there was a guy that came every wednesday and he would climb up on the table with a megaphone and look over our fence and scream through at the people who came in. you in the lincoln, you have enough money to support a baby. why are you killing your baby? >> don't kill your baby. we'll help you. >> we'll give you a baby blanket and send you to the welfare office. >> if you can just break down that initiate retistance and
start a conversation. >> my first five or eight seconds might be pleading and my voice gets shrill. don't let them murder your baby. mommy, don't kill me. they are going in the door and the door shuts. just in the hope that some phrase will haunt them. >> the patients were already sad to be coming there and the be berajjed with this constant hatred, they were already conflicted. they were, nobody plans to have an abortion. nobody wants to have an abortion. >> it was a point when i wanted to get out of the car and walk right to them with my big belly and have them face me and see me and tell them to, they can never possibly understand the pain and
the sorrow and anguish that i was going through. >> on one end of the spectrum you have these people that are 100% sure they are going to abort this baby. there are people at the other end of the speck truck they will stop their car and roll down the window and start reading the material that you hand them. it's right there. all you have to do is ask her, how can we help you? >> on a number of occasions one of those people trying to persuade incoming patients not to go through was a tall soft spoken man named scott roeder. >> at george till tetiller's cl. >> scott roeder committed his life to fighting the abortion
battle. at one time he had chosen a much more conventional path. >> i met scott on december 29th, 1981. >> say something clever. >> something clever. >> he wasn't romantic but he was very sweet and very kind. we just hit it off. there was something that clicked. >> there's this one time at our wedding our heads are back and we're just laughing. we were just really happy. the trouble started, it was the summer before nick turned three. we weren't just making ends meet. one day he had one of those ah-ha moments. >> can you tell the jury what led up to your conversion, if you will? >> i had been watching the 700 club regularly, a christian program. i was alone in my living room. that day i kneeled down and i did accept christ as my savior.
>> he discovered the pro-life movement. i don't think he gave abortion a thought up until '92 or '93. >> what are your feelings on the practice of abortion? >> from conception forward it is murder. it's not man's job to take life or it is our heavenly father's. >> that's when he really began to meet people. it was shortly after that that he started talking about paul hill and how paul hill killed a doctor in florida and that was great. that was wonderful. >> around the same time roeder began reaching out to rochelle shannon the imprisoned anti-abortion extremist who attempted to murder dr. tiller in 1993. >> did there come a time when you had face-to-face visits with her? >> yeah. >> you would go to the prison in topeka and have visits with her? >> yes. >> did you admire shelly
shannon? >> i guess, yeah. >> you admired her. you admired her because she had tried to kill dr. tiller? >> i admired the fact -- >> is that a yes or no? >> yes. >> he started talking about how it was murder that these doctors were murdering babies. if they're going to murder the babies, well, we're going to murder them. if they kill, then they should be killed. it was hard to live with. nick went to school one morning. i went to work. i came home and scott was gone. money was gone. his clothes were gone. he was just gone. >> after leaving his family, roeder gets involved with an anti-government militia. in 1996 he's aarrested on the side of a hi. >> he was pulled over. he had a rifle in the car and the makings of a bomb. i believe he was going to blow
up a clinic, an abortion clinic. i was very afraid of scott. right after that i filed for divorce. >> he focused all the rage he had upon the abortion issue and he chose dr. tiller as his target. >> one day roeder approaches a fellow ex-member of the montana freeman with a proposition. >> he came over and pulled me to the side and said would you help me assassinate this doctor. i told him flat out not. we don't go around snuffing out doctors. not at this time any way. knowing what scott would do is sit and pray about the situation. i could almost hear the prayer that he would say. it would be lord make me an instrument of your destruction. apparently that's what happened. there's big news. presenting androgel 1.62%. both are used to treat men with low testosterone.
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eric holder is assigning two prosecutor into leaks of classified information related to cyber taattacks on iran's nuclear program. the dow is soaring more than three and a half percent and lindsay lohan only sustained minor injuries. now back to the assassination of dr. tiller. as the milleniun turns, a growing sense of anxiety surrounds dr. tiller's clinic. the anti-abortion group wants to shut down the clinic. >> they want to wear him down and peck at him from every angle
from harassing him personally at his home to harassing vendors or whoever else might be doing business. >> we released a list that would collaborate with the clinic. >> our plumber. our electrician. people that hauled our trash. >> wichita is a pretty big town. there's three cab companies. two of them refused to bring patients from the airport to our clinic. >> fedex said they wouldn't deliver their packages to us anymore, and would it be okay if we dropped them off some other place. >> it wasn't a policy. it was our driver and the driver has the right to say they don't feel safe in a certain location. >> it's like we had become pi
rye yas and no one wanted to deal with us. >> it isn't just the businesses. his employees are targeted. >> operation rescue had a website just dedicated to all of us and all of our pictures and names. they knew more about us than we knew about ourselves. >> they started finding out where we all lived. >> our neighbors got these barrage of postcards. some of them quite graphic outing us. did you know that your neighbor selly is an abortionist? did you know your neighbor worked for dr. tiller? >> did you know kathy is using blood money to pay for her house? >> mostly it would just make me angry and certainly cemented my feelings about why i was working there. >> no one is targeted as
intensely as dr. tiller and his family. for them real violence always looms. >> he purchased the bullet proof jeep and wore a bullet proof vest. >> he had the federal marshals living with him for something like 30 months, in his house. >> there's no way i can imagine what his family went through. it's impossible for me to co comprehend that. i don't think they could wake up a day and feel secure and acknowledge that nothing was going to happen. >> in an effort to attract as much as attention as possible, operation rescue set their sights beyond the wichita city limits. >> one of operation rescue's major goals was to make george tiller's name or at least his abortion facility and what he did a household name. finally bill o'reilly began picking up the story and he really lit into tiller. >> tiller has kills thousands,
thousands of late term fetuses without explanation. >> he compared him to stalin. he vilified dr. tiller on national tv 28 times. >> tiller, the baby killer. tiller the baby killer as some call him will perform late term abortion for just about any reason. >> if you hear endlessly that someone is a killer, killer, killer, he's certainly no longer a person. no longer a human being. >> that kind of behavior adds to the general attitude that it's okay to say hateful things about abortion providers. it's okay to act on that hate toward them. >> beginning in 2006, operation rescue files a steady stream of complaints about dr. tiller's practice. in june 2007, they have some success with this tactic. dr. tiller is charged with 19
misdemeaner counts connected to an alleged illegal relationship with a physician that approved a number of late-term procedures. >> in kansas, in order to do a post viable portion you have to have a second kansas physician evaluate the patient and agrees that the pregnancy represents a threat to her health. >> that physician could not be legally or financially tied to dr. tiller. dr. tiller was accused of having a financial relationship with her. >> in 2009, he stands trial in a wichita courtroom. operation rescue is confident it's a step away from accomplishing its mission, getting his medical license revoked. >> the legislature was closing in and tightening the laws. the kansas board of healing had
filed indictments. i think it was clear he was getting close to retirement. >> on march 27th, 2009, the jury in the state of kansas versus george tiller leaves the courtroom to deliberate. they quickly return with a verdict. >> we the jury find the defendant not guilty of illegal abortion as alleged in count one. >> he was acquitted as somebody said in less time than it takes to eat a ham sandwich. the jury said not guilty on all charges. >> it was a big load off of his shoulders. oh, yeah. >> i think for the anti-abortion people it was a huge disappointment. >> we were so close to having tiller lose his license. i wanted to beat him. >> scott roeder is not a member of operation rescue but he attended the trial nearly every day. he is seen beside operation rescue president troy newman. when the trial conclude, roeder is devastated by the verdict. >> there's no question that tiller's acquittal of those 19
charges was part of what pushed scott roeder towards the actions that he took. no question. >> did you decide it was incumbent upon you to do something? >> there was nothing being done. the legal process had been exhausted and these babies were dying every day. i felt i needed to act and quickly for those children. a lie bringing people together to bring new ideas to life. look. it's so simple. [ male announcer ] in here, the right minds from inside and outside the company come together to work on an idea. adding to it from the road, improving it in the cloud all in real time. good idea. ♪ it's the at&t network -- providing new ways to work together, so business works better. ♪
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less than an hour, the victory is short lived. he's immediately notified of another impending investigation. this time by the top medical authority in the state, the kansas board of healing arts on the contact same charges. >> why? because one of the operation rescue people lodged a complaint on the same charges. he didn't have time to enjoy the fact that he had finally won. then another blow. it was just never going to end. >> although this is a positive development for operation rescue, it was of little comfort to scott roeder who is distraught by the acquittal. the court ruling is the last straw. >> the legislature tried and they weren't successful. the grand juries weren't successful. he was acquitted by a jury. somebody had to stop him, and that somebody is going to be me. >> by this point in the spring
of 2009, scott roeder is living apart from his ex-wife and teenage son. he shares an apartment with roommates and spends most of his time devoting scripture. >> there's a bible group that he would go to. those individuals, during that time, would talk about a variety of things. he also, during those conversations, talked about dr. tiller. someone must take action and end tiller's life. at that time i think roeder began really formulating a plan to end the life of dr. tiller. >> and he finally started to recognize that the only point that he could find him where he would be unaware is at his church. scott roeder started to make trips down to wichita.
he could attend services. >> we thought he was interested in joining our church. >> i couldn't help notice he was never apart of the service. he was not worshipping in our church. it bothered me to thepoint that i followed him out and saw the car he got into and wrote his license tag number at that point. >> he was not accepted by the congregation, did not fit in. there was never an indication he was there to hurt dr. tiller. >> on sunday, may 24th, scott roeder travels the 200 miles from his home to wichita. he visits with full intent to kill dr. tiller. >> were you armed that day? >> yes. >> what were you armed with? >> i believe it was a, it was the taurus. >> dr. tiller is not at church that day, so scott roeder returns to kansas city. five days later roeder calls his
ex-wife with a request to spend the evening with his teenage son. having devoted himself to the laws of judaism, it's very auou of character for roeder. >> he picked up his son. they spent some time together. his son knew that was very unusual just the fact it was friday and on the sabbath that shouldn't have happened. >> they went to dinner. they went to a movie. scott wanted to buy him ice cream. he wanted to go with him to visit with his friends. he didn't want the evening to end. he wanted it to go on and on. one of the first thing nick realized after he heard about the shooting, after scott had been arrested was he was saying good-bye to me. >> the next morning, saturday, may 30th, roeder visits his brother in topeka and returns to
wichita checking into a motel by sunday. >> do you remember what you did that night? >> watched tv. ate dinner, went to >> were you preparing yourself for the next morning. >> yes. [ male announcer ] if paula ebert had her way, she would help her child. go! goooo! [ male announcer ] with everything. but instead she gives him capri sun super-v. with one combined serving of fruits and vegetables. new capri sun super-v. the calcium they take because they don't take it with food. switch to citracal maximum plus d. it's the only calcium supplement that can be taken with or without food. that's why my doctor recommends citracal maximum. it's all about absorption.
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on sunday, may 31st, mr. roeder left his motel room around 9:30 in the morning. we have video of that, of him signing out and paying for his room. he then went to the church. he backed his vehicle next to a trash can on the far side of the parking lot, but basically made sure he was able to get out quickly. >> so roeder is armed with his weapon. then he sees dr. tiller come in,
and then he sees dr. tiller leave by the side door. he got up, and he followed dr. tiller directly out the side door. >> they walk out the door, and there is dr. tiller. >> yes. >> he was right in front of you. >> yes. >> and you took your gun, and you took it out -- had it out of your pocket. it was in your hand, is that right? >> yes. >> did it appear he was aware that you were there? >> i don't think he was aware. >> so you caught him unaware. >> i believe so. >> then you took that steel gun and you put it at his forehead. is that right? >> yes. >> and when it made contact with his head, you pulled the trigger. >> yes. >> and do you feel you have successfully completed your mission? >> he's been stopped. >> 911. >> somebody just came in and shot him in our church. >> somebody shot someone? >> yes, dr. tiller.
dr. george tiller was just shot. >> that morning, dr. tiller's staff passes the tragic news to each other by phone. >> i called joanne first. of course, she was devastated. >> kathy said they shot doctor. i remember specifically kathy said they. that's exactly how we thought of it, they. we knew exactly who they were. >> then i called the doctor and heard her screaming in my ears. oh, no. oh, no. you're kidding. you're kidding. >> i don't think i've ever experienced that kind of grief. it seemed so wrong. so wrong that someone who was so incredible, so amazing could be killed. for what? >> during the murder investigation, authorities discover a piece of evidence in scott roeder's car that connects
him to operation rescue. when questioned, operation rescue president troy newman denies any ties to roeder. >> one of our cards was found on the dash board of scott roeder's car. it was the contact information that was the information line. it was the number people called to find out when the prayer vigils were, when the rallies were. that phone rang nonstop it was published on the internet. we're not suspects in this case. >> nearly six months later on january 2, 2010, the jury delivers their verdict on scott roeder. it takes only 35 minutes to reach a decision. >> we, the jury, find the defendant scott roeder guilty of the crime of first-degree murder. >>sentenced to 50 years without parole. >> scott, you regret what you did? >> no, i don't. >> do you know if dr. tiller's clinic is still open? >> i've been told it is shut
down. >> how do you feel about that? >> a sense of relief, actually. >> the family made the choice to close the clinic. >> there used to be three clinics in wichita. now there are none. so patients have to go to either kansas city, which is 200 miles away, or denver, which is about 500 miles away. >> what are these women going to do who are getting bad news this week? where are they going to go? what in they're scheduled to see dr. tiller and now they can't go? i can't imagine being in that situation. >> if they don't get help from me, they're going to be sticking pencils into their cervix or throwing their baby in a dumpster or discarding their baby in a plastic bag on the side of the road. we're doing a legal, desperately needed service. >> for those who worked and supported dr. tiller, a raw anger remains.
though not toward the man who pulled the trigger. for them, much of their rage is focused on the anti-abortion forces that targeted dr. till for so many years. >> the ones who don't carry guns definitely incite the ones who do have guns. >> they fill them with hate and stand back when the least imbalanced among them does something. they say they didn't have anything to do with it. >> we never advocated violence. no, you didn't. you advocated everything else. you put him up to hatred, contempt, and ridicule. and he gets killed. and you step back from it now and say, well, that really wasn't our intent. well, what the hell was your intent? >> it's the furthest thing from the truth that we were in any way involved in george tiller's murder. we were shocked and horrified about it just like everybody else.